tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931579729864611467.post3299437512421157243..comments2023-10-31T05:37:16.659-07:00Comments on A Guy in the Pew: Religion and the Presidential VoteChuck Blanchardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01417638725063186710noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931579729864611467.post-88687649184340125402007-08-26T11:28:00.000-07:002007-08-26T11:28:00.000-07:00You're still not getting my point, Chuck, which is...You're still not getting my point, Chuck, which is unlike you. Just place yourself in my seat for a second. I'm going to use the same Obama quote you did, but I'm going to gloss it -- the way I hear it.<BR/><BR/><I>So let's rededicate ourselves to a new kind of politics - a politics of conscience.</I> <B>[Sounds great. Having a conscience is not dependent on a god-belief.]</B> <BR/><BR/><I>Let's come together - Protestant and Catholic, Muslim and Hindu and Jew, believer and non-believer alike.</I> <B>[A nod to nonbelievers. Yay.]</B><BR/><BR/><I>We're not going to agree on everything, but we can disagree without being disagreeable.</I> <B>[Yup.]</B><BR/><BR/><I>We can affirm our faith without endangering the separation of church and state, as long as we understand that when we're in the public square, we have to speak in universal terms that everyone can understand.</I> <B>[Oops. Notice that he didn't say "universal terms that don't presume one worldview takes precedence over others." No, he wants everyone to understand. Well, I don't understand, at the deepest level, a belief in any supernatural beings. I <I>understand</I> that many people have that belief, and I would defend their right to that belief. But ... ummmm ... I don't understand it.]</B><BR/><BR/><I>And if we can do that - if we can embrace a common destiny - then I believe we'll not just help bring about a more hopeful day in America, we'll not just be caring for our own souls,</I> <B>[what about those of us who don't believe humans have souls?</B>] <I>we'll be doing God's work here on Earth.</I> <B>[In other words, "I'll give lip-service to nonbelievers, but I'm still going to claim to do the work of an entity in whom they don't believe. <I>And</I> I'm going to claim that even they, if they elect me, will be doing such work.]</B><BR/><BR/>Chuck, I want a candidate who does humanity's work. I've seen some of "god's work," and I'm not impressed. So let's leave god's work to him, whether he exists or not, and elect someone who thinks that we humans are solely responsible for finding solutions to our earthly problems.The Exterminatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14452054124550486048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931579729864611467.post-86730518247172716462007-08-25T15:42:00.001-07:002007-08-25T15:42:00.001-07:00Opps--the speech I quote above was by Barak Obama....Opps--the speech I quote above was by Barak Obama.Chuck Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417638725063186710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931579729864611467.post-26562835956211183522007-08-25T15:42:00.000-07:002007-08-25T15:42:00.000-07:00Exterminator:It may not get the same press as the ...Exterminator:<BR/><BR/>It may not get the same press as the statements about faith, but I know at least one candidate on the Democratic side has actually been careful to make the very points you make. The following comes form a speech to the United Church of Christ assembly--to me it speaks volumes that he would say this to a religious audience:<BR/><BR/>"So let's rededicate ourselves to a new kind of politics - a politics of conscience. Let's come together - Protestant and Catholic, Muslim and Hindu and Jew, believer and non-believer alike. We're not going to agree on everything, but we can disagree without being disagreeable. We can affirm our faith without endangering the separation of church and state, as long as we understand that when we're in the public square, we have to speak in universal terms that everyone can understand. And if we can do that - if we can embrace a common destiny - then I believe we'll not just help bring about a more hopeful day in America, we'll not just be caring for our own souls, we'll be doing God's work here on Earth. Thank you."Chuck Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417638725063186710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931579729864611467.post-87623605756201516932007-08-24T18:17:00.000-07:002007-08-24T18:17:00.000-07:00Chuck:I think from your standpoint it's easy to be...Chuck:<BR/><BR/>I think from your standpoint it's easy to believe that the current crop of Democrats are merely showing respect to religion, as well as to lack of same. Because of your personal beliefs, I'm not sure you have automatic empathy with non-believers, and I wouldn't expect you to. I know, however, that you'll empathize and sympathize when I point out the following.<BR/><BR/>I must say that I, as an atheist, am deeply offended every time faith is bandied about in one of their debates or speeches. The implication is that religion is a positive value, and its lack is a negative one. So, no, they don't show me the same respect they show the most outrageously backwards fundamentalists, who think it's just peachy for their god to smite all non-believers. <BR/><BR/>Now, I happen to think that respect for freedom of thought should overtop faith as a criterion for presidential suitability. But the candidates do not discuss true freedom of thought at all, let alone with the fervor that they use for proclaiming their love for all things biblical. <BR/><BR/>I'm not asking that a candidate be an atheist. All I'm asking is that he or she say, out loud, and not just as a throw-away, that non-belief is a constitutionally protected alternative to religion, and one that deserves equal tolerance. I would also find it as close to a miracle as I can in my godlessness if one or more candidates actively disavowed the use of religion as a campaigning tactic. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, the only one who seems to have done so is Giuliani -- who, as you and I both know -- is unacceptable for a myriad of other reasons.The Exterminatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14452054124550486048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931579729864611467.post-36221776467535716872007-08-24T12:16:00.000-07:002007-08-24T12:16:00.000-07:00Exterminator:I think that the current Democratic c...Exterminator:<BR/><BR/>I think that the current Democratic candidates are largely displaying respect and understanding of the values and concerns of religious voters. At the same time, the current field of candidates is as liberal (and in some cases even more so) as Kerry on issues like gay rights and abortion. I see nothing wrong with these Democrats showing respect for voters who are religious. <BR/><BR/>I expect, of course, these Democrats to show the same respect for voters like you that are not religious. To date, I have seen no evidence that any f the leading Democrats have made commitments inconsistent with the Separation of Church and State.Chuck Blanchardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417638725063186710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931579729864611467.post-64187376659390950742007-08-24T11:59:00.000-07:002007-08-24T11:59:00.000-07:00So are you suggesting, Chuck, that pandering to th...So are you suggesting, Chuck, that pandering to the religious vote is a good idea for Democrats? When faith is discussed by a candidate <I>ad nauseam</I>, the implication is that religion will play an active part in his or her administration. I think the Constitution forbids that, at least implicitly. (Remember that the framers went out of their way <I>not</I> to include any religious references in their document. And of course, they explicitly forbade a religious test as a qualification for holding office. Not to mention--oops, I just did--the First Amendment's prohibition of any kind of establishment by the Congress.)<BR/><BR/>I think, if I've read you correctly all these months, you're in favor of separation of church and state. How can you reconcile that position with a suggestion that Democrats cozy up to those members of the electorate who use religion as a criterion? Voters who cast their ballots based on a religious preference expect something in return.The Exterminatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14452054124550486048noreply@blogger.com